MonsterJam2008 Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 In response to all the concerns about injuries I believe Mr. Excitement said best, "This ain't no sissy show, this is MONSTER JAM!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kp16 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 whhats wrong with nitro circus live? i think there shows are awesome and why does this concern monster jam? i think monster jam will be better in the future with the new 30 an. grave digger and new trucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriotic Canadian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 If you guys haven't noticed already, Monster Jam is all about the kids. Not adults or adolescents. Just. Kids. This is something i've noticed with society today. This will get minorly into sociology so brace yourself and all that. The problem with a "free market" economy based society, IE basically what america is based on, is that it's inherently a catalyst for propping up sociopathic people as successful. (Sociopathic meaning that you have no concideration for other people's pain. You may sympathise, but have no part of other people's misfortune in your thought process) Which is why the market caved in on itself in 2008. People didn't think about how splicing up mortages would effect the market as a whole. and sold stock in a fragment on the stock market in order to expand the buisness of selling mortages to people who couldn't afford them, on the basis that they'd just resell the forclosed house and turn a profit. the problem being, that after said forclosure did happen, the people who invested in the mortage couldn't be found/held accountable, so there was a massive investment stalling, causing the breakdown. which we're still dealing with today. and a trickle down effect that we get from this, is market hyper localization, even to the point of age groups. Take the nineties, my personal Deus Ex Machina of arguments and sociology fights. In the ninties, yes, the idea of a localized market existed. Always has really, but they were willing to mix the "target" groups. A trait most easily demonstrated in cartoons. Off the top of my head, here's a list of cartoons, geared for kids, but watchable by everyone because they mixed the age groups and didn't worry about hyper localization. Gargoyles MEGAS XLR Samarai Jack Powerpuff Girls Animanics (HELOOOOOOOO NURSE) since i'm tired, that's a short list, but the idea is there. Gargoyles, for chrissakes, dealed with racism, xenophobia, social castes, cooporate power mingling with with political affairs, societies political stagnation, especailly when coming to building a party on a misconception, corruption of the justice system and even the ever shifting traits of people themselves, as well as the metal rhythms of society. The main villian isn't even a bad guy, even with a name like Xanatos, he's just a guy trying to make his own way, and that way clashes with the titular gargoyles. and all this from the show about neon colored deities punching up bad guys, batman style. Now to the point, the problem with modern society, is that our free market economy has inherently reached a saturation point. With the advent of the internet, anyone can learn anything, and have a well vouched foot in the door for whatever they want, leading any content/producer to hyper focus their market in order to stay viable, even if it means defacing the name of artistic integrity or any other sort of mature behaviour/handling of IP's, and monster jam has gone down that path sadly. The overt irony however, is that monster jam doesn't have to hyper focus their market. they're in a brilliant position, that any sane businessman would murder (and probably have) to get to. They have a monopoly on the monster truck market. They've built a grand franchise, to the point where they can produce better and better shows, and better and better machines to run in said shows, because they can afford to own a fleet of trucks, and pay pablo huffbaker/whoever else to think up new and fantastic ways to make them better and better. But because of the trend of market zenithing, and because that businessmen are inherently a pack animal, they think that they have to hyper focus their brand to attract and keep investors, with the painful irony that they'll probably loose the kid market as the children grow up, and are put off by the "kiddie" air of monster trucks. and who'd ever thought that would be said? The sad truth is, all monster jam really needs to do is shift the focus. Hell, they can even keep the kiddie market, as oggy said, he could follow PENDA perfectly as his kid, even going so far as naming his fish "Dan Runte" "Mark Hall" and "Snakebite". But, a preaching man without a solution is just a hyperboling critic, so here's what i say should happen. Firstly, monster jam has to fix their focus, which could easily done while preserving their kiddy market, introduce a point series, slap scott douglass and mark shroeder in the face and tell them to be serious, and not refer to the new CRD wolverine as "THE TRUCK THAT WON THE RACING CHAMPIONSHIP" even though it has all but nill to do with Brian Bartel, and keep a firm foot in reality, commenting on what it is, explaining complex concepts such as "frames" to children, and generally just maturing up a little. Secondly, love off with the stunting stuff. It's fine to have in freestyle, but dedicating entire shows to a truck rolling backwards is stupid. plain and simple. It's atrophying the mindset, stagnation in the metal department, just stupid in every sense of the term, not to mention detrimental to the brand in general. Thirdly, more accessibility to behind the scenes. not to a forced, camp degree like they're doing now, but just let the drivers be open on monsterjamonline or facebook. let them slag, belittle and joke in the open, and for loves sake, don't force it. After hearing a certain story from Dig, i had a sudden pity for Damon Bradshaw, and a malicious respect for Lee O'Donnel. Fourth, base the point series on driver by driver, not truck names. Fifth, nuture a community. Brand loyalty comes from forums, and social involvement, as we're all inherently associating everything we do to our inherent freudian "pack" instincts and projections. And they should stop making games, because it'll be a loss regardless, as there's no market for a realistic monster truck game, because FELD doesn't market monster jam in that way, so there's no interest. and kiddie RACING IN THE TRAINYARDS AND MOUNTAINS bullpoo will only be detrimental to the brand. end of story. /endrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobamatic Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think the point that the guy who started this thread was trying to make was that eventually Monster Trucks will become a stunt/entertainment show instead of a legitimate motorsports league. There are other promoters who have tried to do innovative stuff in racing with a points series and wild or very long tracks but either their sponsors messed them over or they can't get into the larger venues and progress as a company because of Monster Jam having exclusive contracts with many of them. Like PC said Monster Jam has a lock on the market and with the economy the way it is sponsors and venues are less willing to take a risk on something new and different. I hope one day to see a racing/freestyle league with no more than two team trucks at a show (I'd actually prefer one truck from each team) instead of a show of like 8 trucks and three owners and/or entertainment shows. If it does become a stunt show I too will stop going but even if everyone on here stopped going it probably wouldn't make any difference. Every year there are new kids getting exposed to it and their parents will take them to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriotic Canadian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Which is why we have to take this to monster jam instead of pattering about and beating about the bush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Honstly i think 2007-2009 years for Monster Jam were perfect....they still actually crushed cars and vans, NO BACKFLIPS, drivers were not getting injured Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobamatic Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think it's going to take another promoter to get big enough to compete with them to force them to change. Why give the people what they want when you own the market. The corporate mentality is if you own the market don't do anything different and save the good ideas for when the market is down. Right now I think their saving the new and exciting stuff for when competition comes along and starts hurting them financially. I don't think sending them complaints or suggestions does anything. People have been complaining about them not having Bigfoot at their shows for over a decade now and they just have generic, pre-typed letters and responses they send out for that. Something is going to have to happen to force them to change because if their making good money they won't just change on their own, they'll milk it for as long as they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriotic Canadian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 i wish this was a movie, so i could get up, go out the door and asssemble some mega cooporation out of dust and indignation, but it's not, so i'm just going to stare angrily at a grave digger hot wheels die cast for a few hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Politeness Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Firstly, monster jam has to fix their focus, which could easily done while preserving their kiddy market, introduce a point series, slap scott douglass and mark shroeder in the face and tell them to be serious, and not refer to the new CRD wolverine as "THE TRUCK THAT WON THE RACING CHAMPIONSHIP" even though it has all but nill to do with Brian Bartel, and keep a firm foot in reality, commenting on what it is, explaining complex concepts such as "frames" to children, and generally just maturing up a little. Secondly, love off with the stunting stuff. It's fine to have in freestyle, but dedicating entire shows to a truck rolling backwards is stupid. plain and simple. It's atrophying the mindset, stagnation in the metal department, just stupid in every sense of the term, not to mention detrimental to the brand in general. Thirdly, more accessibility to behind the scenes. not to a forced, camp degree like they're doing now, but just let the drivers be open on monsterjamonline or facebook. let them slag, belittle and joke in the open, and for loves sake, don't force it. After hearing a certain story from Dig, i had a sudden pity for Damon Bradshaw, and a malicious respect for Lee O'Donnel. Fourth, base the point series on driver by driver, not truck names. Fifth, nuture a community. Brand loyalty comes from forums, and social involvement, as we're all inherently associating everything we do to our inherent freudian "pack" instincts and projections. And they should stop making games, because it'll be a loss regardless, as there's no market for a realistic monster truck game, because FELD doesn't market monster jam in that way, so there's no interest. and kiddie RACING IN THE TRAINYARDS AND MOUNTAINS bullpoo will only be detrimental to the brand. end of story. /endrant My personal take: 1st point: No, get Schroeder out of there, and let him focus on doing a decent performance on track once in a while. I'd much rather see a crew guy like your Dustin Brown on there that way they don't have to do that horrible "on board commentary" ruse they did in Phoenix last year. 2nd point: Not quite sure what you mean by "rolling backwards". You mean trucks like Backwards Bob or how backflips are the selling point of every show? If you mean the latter, then I'd rather point the finger at Larry Quick and not FELD. I personally hate seeing every truck go out and do a backflip in every run, it just gets ridiculous quickly. 3rd point: Yeah drivers don't get the personal connection with the fans even though Facebook is an excellent resource for this, and I don't mean Dennis Anderson's page, Tom Meents's page, or the Grinder drivers' pages in which they sound like robots instead of actual human beings. 4th point: Sort of like TMB's system? See, here's my issue with a points system like what TheMonsterBlog has set up, you would see guys like Gary Porter who haven't ran a stadium show since 2010 get a place in Vegas over guys like Cam McQueen, Jon Zimmer, and Darren Migues. Do I believe drivers like Zimmer, Epidendio, and Benns get screwed over for guys like Deegan, Jolly, and Madusa is wrong? Yes. 5th point: I honestly believe that if Monster Jam adjusted to where we believe they should be, people on forums like Mayhem will still nice lady and complain to no end. Some people won't be satisfied until trucks are taken back to the 80s. Final point: Yeah, it really is impossible to do because monster trucks are confined to these tracks that are short, less than a minute long races while other popular racing games include massive open environment races, that just doesn't fit with monster trucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriotic Canadian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 i think you missed a few of my points there By rolling backwards, yeah, backflips. it's neat, but good christ back off of it. it's a gimmick and paltry at best, and shouldn't come even close to castrating entire swathes of the vegas tracks like they do now. and the third point, you're right, the problem is, they're obligated by FELD to be "kid appropriate" or, sin of all sin, to not "misrepresent the brand". this is wrong and i doubt that's even them typing in the same way you'd doubt hitler if you're jewish. as for the points system, oggy had it figured out a while back, here's what i copypasted from his little thought book: ooProposed Monster Jam Points Layout First, Monster Jam must stick to four field sizes. 16 (Major Stadium Shows), 12 (Stadium Shows), 8 (fairgrounds), or 5 (Small Arena) ------------------------------- 16 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 2 pts Racing Winner - 16 pts Racing Loser - 12 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts Freestyle winner - 16 pts 2nd - 12 pts 3rd - 10 pts 4th - 8 pts 5th - 6 pts 6th - 4 pts 7th - 2 pts 8th - 1 pts ----------------------------------- 12 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 12 pts Racing Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts Freestyle winner - 12 pts 2nd - 8 pts 3rd - 6 pts 4th - 4 pts 5th - 2 pts 6th - 1 pts ------------------------------------ 8 Truck Fields #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 8 pts Racing Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Freestyle Winner - 8 pts 2nd - 4 pts 3rd - 3 pts 4th - 2 pts ------------------------------------ 5 Truck Fields Wheelie Contest Winner - 2 pts Racing Winner - 5 Racing Loser - 3 Semi Final Loser - 1 pts Semi Final Loser - 1pts Freestyle Winner - 5 2nd - 3 3rd - 2 ------------------------------------- Drivers can partake in as many events as they want. Their final points total is taken by averaging out their best 50% of their finishes. Ex.) Randy Brown runs 28 events in a season, the average of his 14 best events counts as his points total. WORLD FINALS TRUCK LINEUP -Top 16 drivers are eligible -IF two or more drivers in the top 16 are driving the same truck, the truck goes to the driver highest in the points standings. The remaining drivers are then taken out of the top 16, and the next eligible truck/driver combo is brought into the top 16. Ex.) Neil Elliott is #1, Meents is #2, Hartsock is #16, and Charles Benns is #17. Meents WOULD NOT make the world finals, Hartsock would move up to 15th, and Benns would now be eligible for the WF. as for the fifth point, people are like that, it's inevitible. Check the steam forums if you don't believe me. lastly, i was takling about the games, where you race through malls, gigantic outdoor settings, and christ forbid, gigantic skiball machines. (seriously. what the hell.) they do a few shows in gigantic outdoor places. like Naples Florida. that track is amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Politeness Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 i think you missed a few of my points there By rolling backwards, yeah, backflips. it's neat, but good christ back off of it. it's a gimmick and paltry at best, and shouldn't come even close to castrating entire swathes of the vegas tracks like they do now. and the third point, you're right, the problem is, they're obligated by FELD to be "kid appropriate" or, sin of all sin, to not "misrepresent the brand". this is wrong and i doubt that's even them typing in the same way you'd doubt hitler if you're jewish. as for the points system, oggy had it figured out a while back, here's what i copypasted from his little thought book: ooProposed Monster Jam Points Layout First, Monster Jam must stick to four field sizes. 16 (Major Stadium Shows), 12 (Stadium Shows), 8 (fairgrounds), or 5 (Small Arena) ------------------------------- 16 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 2 pts Racing Winner - 16 pts Racing Loser - 12 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts Freestyle winner - 16 pts 2nd - 12 pts 3rd - 10 pts 4th - 8 pts 5th - 6 pts 6th - 4 pts 7th - 2 pts 8th - 1 pts ----------------------------------- 12 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 12 pts Racing Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts Freestyle winner - 12 pts 2nd - 8 pts 3rd - 6 pts 4th - 4 pts 5th - 2 pts 6th - 1 pts ------------------------------------ 8 Truck Fields #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 8 pts Racing Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Freestyle Winner - 8 pts 2nd - 4 pts 3rd - 3 pts 4th - 2 pts ------------------------------------ 5 Truck Fields Wheelie Contest Winner - 2 pts Racing Winner - 5 Racing Loser - 3 Semi Final Loser - 1 pts Semi Final Loser - 1pts Freestyle Winner - 5 2nd - 3 3rd - 2 ------------------------------------- Drivers can partake in as many events as they want. Their final points total is taken by averaging out their best 50% of their finishes. Ex.) Randy Brown runs 28 events in a season, the average of his 14 best events counts as his points total. WORLD FINALS TRUCK LINEUP -Top 16 drivers are eligible -IF two or more drivers in the top 16 are driving the same truck, the truck goes to the driver highest in the points standings. The remaining drivers are then taken out of the top 16, and the next eligible truck/driver combo is brought into the top 16. Ex.) Neil Elliott is #1, Meents is #2, Hartsock is #16, and Charles Benns is #17. Meents WOULD NOT make the world finals, Hartsock would move up to 15th, and Benns would now be eligible for the WF. as for the fifth point, people are like that, it's inevitible. Check the steam forums if you don't believe me. lastly, i was takling about the games, where you race through malls, gigantic outdoor settings, and christ forbid, gigantic skiball machines. (seriously. what the hell.) they do a few shows in gigantic outdoor places. like Naples Florida. that track is amazing True, look at Chris Bergeron in 2011 who got knocked out because the container was set with no give, lucky that was the only case. Then this year so many runs were cut short due to El Toro Loco being stuck in the container (I seriously believe if they didn't wreck early, Neil or Ryan would've won it and not Cam) I think that system would be perfect if you mixed it with half as locked in, and half in open qualifying for Vegas. At the end of the day, even if Monster Jam still cared about a legit points system, they still know money must be made so if Pablo Huffaker gets the Digger ride in Vegas over Dennis or Neil gets in Max D over Tom, I guarantee that ticket sales for the World Finals will drop because for all the times they associate trucks more than drivers, people still know Meents and Anderson and would rather pay to go see them over Huffaker or Elliot. I'm not saying denying them spots in the World Finals (Good move for bringing back Captain's Curse for Pablo and please bring back Bulldozer for Elliot) True, perhaps its because I'm not active in many other forums but as of recent, it's just gotten ridiculous on there, but I digress. What I was referring to was the open city racing you get in games like Need for Speed or GRID, that sells. Perhaps they could go down the DiRT route and integrate more racing ala Mickey Thompson style in the games, because personally I loved the idea of racing in and out of the stadiums in Path of Destruction, just get rid of the giant bowling pins and stuff like that and then go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterJam2008 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 i think you missed a few of my points there By rolling backwards, yeah, backflips. it's neat, but good christ back off of it. it's a gimmick and paltry at best, and shouldn't come even close to castrating entire swathes of the vegas tracks like they do now. and the third point, you're right, the problem is, they're obligated by FELD to be "kid appropriate" or, sin of all sin, to not "misrepresent the brand". this is wrong and i doubt that's even them typing in the same way you'd doubt hitler if you're jewish. as for the points system, oggy had it figured out a while back, here's what i copypasted from his little thought book: ooProposed Monster Jam Points Layout First, Monster Jam must stick to four field sizes. 16 (Major Stadium Shows), 12 (Stadium Shows), 8 (fairgrounds), or 5 (Small Arena) ------------------------------- 16 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 2 pts Racing Winner - 16 pts Racing Loser - 12 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 8 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 4 pts Freestyle winner - 16 pts 2nd - 12 pts 3rd - 10 pts 4th - 8 pts 5th - 6 pts 6th - 4 pts 7th - 2 pts 8th - 1 pts ----------------------------------- 12 Truck Events #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 12 pts Racing Loser - 8 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 4 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts 2nd Round Loser - 2 pts Freestyle winner - 12 pts 2nd - 8 pts 3rd - 6 pts 4th - 4 pts 5th - 2 pts 6th - 1 pts ------------------------------------ 8 Truck Fields #1 Qualifier - 1 pts Racing Winner - 8 pts Racing Loser - 4 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Semi Final Loser - 2 pts Freestyle Winner - 8 pts 2nd - 4 pts 3rd - 3 pts 4th - 2 pts ------------------------------------ 5 Truck Fields Wheelie Contest Winner - 2 pts Racing Winner - 5 Racing Loser - 3 Semi Final Loser - 1 pts Semi Final Loser - 1pts Freestyle Winner - 5 2nd - 3 3rd - 2 ------------------------------------- Drivers can partake in as many events as they want. Their final points total is taken by averaging out their best 50% of their finishes. Ex.) Randy Brown runs 28 events in a season, the average of his 14 best events counts as his points total. WORLD FINALS TRUCK LINEUP -Top 16 drivers are eligible -IF two or more drivers in the top 16 are driving the same truck, the truck goes to the driver highest in the points standings. The remaining drivers are then taken out of the top 16, and the next eligible truck/driver combo is brought into the top 16. Ex.) Neil Elliott is #1, Meents is #2, Hartsock is #16, and Charles Benns is #17. Meents WOULD NOT make the world finals, Hartsock would move up to 15th, and Benns would now be eligible for the WF. as for the fifth point, people are like that, it's inevitible. Check the steam forums if you don't believe me. lastly, i was takling about the games, where you race through malls, gigantic outdoor settings, and christ forbid, gigantic skiball machines. (seriously. what the hell.) they do a few shows in gigantic outdoor places. like Naples Florida. that track is amazing that could work, but Tom Meents has won 10 championships so why not have the top 20 racers and the top 20 freestyler's? Jim and Chris wouldn't get to race but still freestyle. Zimmer wouldn't freestyle just race, Tom and Dennis would do both. FOR THE LAST TIME, THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT DRIVERS GETTING HURT, LOOK AT THIS VIDEO: JIM SAID IT PERFECTLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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